[Sharpey V2.0]

when you see it in the lineup you probably dont complain like you used to, right? Ive noticed, mostly thanks to our performances against teams like ARsenal and the last game against chelsea, how people arent so opposed as they used to be. This reluctance to play 4-5-1 was strange in the first place because the most admired team in England, Barcelona, always play with a 4-5-1, like we do in these big games. So those of you who still dont like it, what are your objections? and those of you who like it, what would you say is our better version of 4-5-1?

For me, our better version, and basically the entire point of 4-5-1 is strengthen midfield, so Fletcher is the key element of any 4-5-1 we play. With fletcher and carrick, and a creative player, either scholes or giggs in the middle, with two penetrative forwards (I dont agree with playing 4-5-1 with park on the team, unless we're playing away against a great side, or because we've players missing from injuries), so here its my ideal 4-5-1

VDS

Rafael-----------Rio-------Vidic---------Evra

---------------Carrick-------Scholes----------

----------------------Fletcher------------------

Valencia----------------------------------Nani

---------------------Rooney---------------------


im not saying we must play 4-5-1 every game, in some games we can play our traditional 4-4-2, with rooney and berba upfront, or berba and owen, even if the opposition doesnt have a strong midfield play scholes and carrick in the middle

[shaunzo7]

My biggest problem with the 4-5-1 formation, until recently I might add, is that we haven't had a player who could play the front man. It also resulted in Rooney being pushed out wide. Now that Rooney's worked on his movement in the box and his heading ability he can play the front man which has solved the problems it caused last season.

The one problem I have with it just now is that it results in leaving Berbatov on the bench and I'm a huge fan of the Bulgarian. Sometimes we need the extra man in the middle though and with, although not limited to, the workrate of Fletcher, the vision and game reading ability of Carrick combined with a creative midfielder we've got a real force in the centre of the park.

Arsenal and Chelsea both seem to be playing a similar type of formation, although Chelsea's lacks the same width as ours due to Ancelotti's approach. The reason Arsenal aren't doing well at the moment is because they don't have the front man they need in Arshavin, who's been putting in some woeful performances lately, and really need Van Persie back.

My favourite 4-5-1 would go like this:

CODE

          Van der Sar          

Rafael  Ferdinand  Vidic  Evra

            Carrick
      Fletcher   Scholes

Valencia                  Nani
            Rooney

I think Carrick's the best at protecting the back four because, as I mentioned before, he reads the game so well and can break play up when the opposition are in possesion. Its a pretty flexible middle three though as I also love to see Carrick get forward and there's the option for them to rotate, in particular Carrick and Fletcher. The jury's still out on how well Nani can do on the left though, but I think he's worth putting down there at the moment as we don't really have another left winger who can do what he can and we can't keep relying on Giggsy who would struggle to play a full game in that role nowadays.

[Sharpey V2.0]

I like scholes to drop deep because he always offers an outlet for our defence when we start play, otherwise its too easy to block carrick and we have to start every play with a long ball from the defence, be it brown who is terrible at long passing, or Vidic who isnt much better

What you say about rooney is true. Thats what Ive always maintained he should play in the advanced central midfield role in front of carrick and fletcher. That would require, though, a powerful center forward who can lead the line, but I think in time its the right thing to do, with creative midfielders being so incredibly rare these days. Rooney could offer the creativity we're lacking in that area, and we could also have more goals if we buy a good center forward. You know I like Berba and always have, but Im now convinced he isnt the right player for the job. His positioning in the box, and especially timing, isnt good enough for this particular role. He also keeps dropping too deep. He's a top player in many respects, but I can't see him fitting into any of our tactical diagrams for the future.

Of course with the 4-5-1 becoming a norm im not sure why we signed owen, instead of a good left winger, but I think fergie changed his mind midseason, when he saw we needed scholes or giggs in the middle because fletch and carrick arent creative enough by themselves. Thats the problem, we havent found a replacement for scholes, we need a top creative player in the middle of the park. There no great team in the history of the game who haven't had a great midfielder, theres simply no examples. Particularly in modern football, central midfield is a key position, unless you have a beast in the wings who can make up for the lack of creativity, like we did with ronaldo. Now with ronaldo gone, we need a creative presence in the middle, hence the need to play 4-5-1 to accommodate our two most creative central midfielders, giggs and scholes.

4-5-1 or 4-3-3, requires three pure attackers who can punish the other teams at counterattacking. I think we only have 2 players like this, rooney and Nani. Valencia isnt quite like that, not against good teams anyway. This is also why wehn we play Park as one of the three only attackers we sacrifice too much, IMO, in the attacking sense, though fair is fair, he has been great against Arsenal, but its far from the norm. Barcelona have Zlatan, Messi and Henry, plus iniesta who plays in the more advanced role and is basically another attacker. So in practice they have 4 attackers. This is what we should do in the future, with rooney in the scholes role in front of carrick and fletch, 2 great wingers and a great finisher upfront. Formations are all about personnel. You can play 4-5-1 and be incredibly offensive, and you can play 4-4-2 and be incredibly defensive.

I think 4-5-1 is the way of the future because it gives both defensive cover and creativeness to midfield. Long are the days where you could sacrifice one of the two central midifelders for attacking matters and not ask of him any defensive commitments.

[Pedram]

Funny..sharpey just last year you were criticising the 4-5-1 left right and centre in every which way...

Either way, i think the formation has become succesful because of the players we've now got...
Rooney has become more mature so he stays in position more often, not to mention does a great job of holding up the play...
Also, Valencia and Giggs have stayed wide when they have the ball, with the other coming into the box to support Rooney...
Scholes stays deep mainly because he can't play box to box, and that leaves us a man short when on the back foot...he's been guilty of playing quite a few long balls himself...

The real problem we're left with now is Nani or Valencia on the right...Nani will never be as good, or rather i should say disciplined, when on the left, as his first instinct is to cut in and shoot, as well as him not being able to cross well with his left foot...

What i really love about the team this year is that they truly play for each other...i don't think i've ever seen any other team's midfield and attack who covers each other the way Utd does...
If Giggs goes up and we lose the ball, Rooney automatically drops to the left wing..or any other position that has a void for that matter...in the same manner, if Rooney gets drawn back, one of the midfielders runs into the CF spot to cover his position...and if two players are up, all the others shift in a line to cover, so for example the ball is going down the left...Carrick switches to the left, Fletch and Scholes in the middle and Valencia would run back and cover the right flank by himself...

[Sharpey V2.0]

Funny..sharpey just last year you were criticising the 4-5-1 left right and centre in every which way...

nah, I never did that. I remember, and im sure others will as well, several threads started by me advocating to start using the 4-5-1 formation. What Ive criticized in the past is certain pusillanimous attitude we take in Europe against particular big rivals, and our change of attitude, and sometimes tactics, because we face barcelona, and not, lets say, Villa. But my biggest complain about formations in Europe has never been formations per se, but our lack of belief in ourselves against these top sides. When we play 4-5-1 out of fear, its obviously bad, not because its 4-5-1, but because we show we're scared of the other team, and that feeling Fergie and the staff have, passes on into the players, like for instance the game at the camp nou in the 07-08 season.

Formations should adapt to personnel. If we had certain players we could play 4-4-2. With ronaldo, fletcher and carrick we could, because ronaldo was a devastating force that could make up for our lack of creation from the middle of the field. Without ronaldo, and with an older scholes, its more difficult to play 4-4-2. Anyway if you or any other read carefully what Ive always wrote about formations you'll see that I dont believe one or the other are necessarily good or bad. thats why I'm amazed people were always badmouthing the 4-5-1, its an interpretation too literal of tactics in football

Either way, i think the formation has become succesful because of the players we've now got...
Rooney has become more mature so he stays in position more often, not to mention does a great job of holding up the play...
Also, Valencia and Giggs have stayed wide when they have the ball, with the other coming into the box to support Rooney...
Scholes stays deep mainly because he can't play box to box, and that leaves us a man short when on the back foot...he's been guilty of playing quite a few long balls himself...

Scholes playing long balls is bad? how? theres probably not a better passer in world football than him

The real problem we're left with now is Nani or Valencia on the right...Nani will never be as good, or rather i should say disciplined, when on the left, as his first instinct is to cut in and shoot, as well as him not being able to cross well with his left foot...

agree on this point and Ive mentioned it before. its a real problem because valencia, although less brilliant than nani, is more consistent and a better team player. He also has a lot of potential to grow as a player, but he obviously can't play on the left, which makes Valencia's signing a bit strange if you think about it. Nani has been in the team for 2 and a half seasons, yet only recently fergie has discovered he plays better on the right? its weird. Otherwise why he bought valencia who is one of the most single footed players Ive seen?

What i really love about the team this year is that they truly play for each other...i don't think i've ever seen any other team's midfield and attack who covers each other the way Utd does...
If Giggs goes up and we lose the ball, Rooney automatically drops to the left wing..or any other position that has a void for that matter...in the same manner, if Rooney gets drawn back, one of the midfielders runs into the CF spot to cover his position...and if two players are up, all the others shift in a line to cover, so for example the ball is going down the left...Carrick switches to the left, Fletch and Scholes in the middle and Valencia would run back and cover the right flank by himself...

Thats good and in a way a sign of our limitations. United works harder than any other team because we have to. Unlike in other seasons when we had enough quality to concern rivals more than they concern us, this year we actually have to work hard or we dont win. I think lately we've been a lot more clinical, but we still have problems to create clear cut chances. This United team lacks creativity in a big way, we need both rooney and Nani to be at their very best or its difficult to find someone who can open up a defence

Our last few games have been entertaining for the most part, but overall this season has been the worst football Ive seen United play since I support them, which is now almost 20 years. We're winning so people dont complain much, but some games our football has been appaling, even some games we've won we've been dire. Things have changed in the past games, hopefully for good, but we have a thin squad in key positions. If either scholes, fletcher, carrick, rooney or Nani have a dip in form or an injury we'll be in deep trouble.