[shaunzo7]

Please don't take the topic title literally.

The players we bring in will depend very much on the shape of the team Fergie wants to use both domestically and in Europe. What do you think should be our formation, and what sort of players should be involved?

Sharpey, you've been talking about this increasingly common 4-3-3 formation which I'm not for to be honest, not for us anyway. What I can see happening with this formation is that Rooney would get forced further and further wide as the season went on and for me we need two strikers in the centre, Rooney and Berba ideally. Stick to 4-4-2, there's no doubt in my mind about this. Traditional, simple and the way we've been most effective if you ask me. Two strikers in the centre like I mentioned supported by two wingers while the central midfielders would involve Carrick and hopefully one creative new signing which I'm really looking for now we've got all this transfer kitty. Carrick can cut out the opposition's play with brilliant reading of the play and interceptions and can pass brilliantly to push the ball forward while the other central midfielder would operate further up the pitch in attack bring the creative force, much like Scholes did a decade ago. Our defence is that strong it doesn't need a defensive midfielder in the shape of a Makelele, Diarra or Zokora - Carrick will be sufficient enough, especially in the league. This formation would allow us to be much more positive in Europe, and although we may concede a few more here and there, we should score more freely and be able to express ourselves more as United should.

You may ask where Fletcher fits into all this? I really don't know to be honest, I wouldn't like to sacrifice the creative midfielder if we can get a succesful one so perhaps in games where we need his grit and determination he should replace Carrick in the more defensive role of the central midfield duo and hassle them a bit more rather than the sort of classier, more subtle way that Carrick operates. Anderson misses out too but he'll get his chances, Fergie rotated well this season and will likely do the same next season.

[Pedram]

I like a traditional 4-4-2 with the players we have...
4-3-3 to 4-5-1 was possible with Ronaldo because it afforded an extra centre midfielder to cover for him on his wing, while Rooney would always do his job on our side...
Given the talent we have though, once we get a winger who is willing to do his defensive duty then i don't think we need to make that sacrifice anymore, which allows the CM to play higher and thus we'd only need two as opposed to three of them...
It also gives Rooney the chance to spend more time upfront and act as a link between midfield and attack which is where he's best...
The other plus is that Rooney's versatility still affords us the ability to revert to a defensive 4-5-1 without knowing that Ronaldo on the right makes it absolutely necessary to push Roo there...

In terms of the players we have...it'd be...

VDS/Foster
Brown/Rafael/Nev Rio/Evans Vida/Brown Evra/OShea
Park/Fletch Carrick/Scholes/Fletch Giggs/Hargro/Anderson Nani/Anderson/Tosic
Rooney/Anderson/Giggs
Berbatov/Rooney

[Sharpey]

I think modern football is going the 4-3-3 way and we can't ignore it. Its not about following a fashionable trend, its about not being outnumbered when you play the likes of chelsea , liverpool or barcelona.

I also think we now have the ideal personnel to play this formation, Im afraid proper wingers are a thing of the past. Its very difficult to find two traditional wide attacking players who will play glued to the sideline a la beckham, giggs, sharpe or kanchelskis.

4-3-3 its not a defensive or attacking formation per se, it all depends on what players you use and what orders them the manager to do. My idea for next season would be this:

CODE

------------------------------VDS---------------------------

Rafael---------------Rio------------Vidic--------------Evra
!                                                        !
!                                                        !
!--------------Fletcher/hargreaves-----Carrick--------   !
!                                                        !
v                                      Anderson          v

---Nani------------------Rooney---------------------------

---------------------------Berba----------------------------

so on the pitch its actually a 4-2-1-2-1, or 4-3-2-1 if you want to make it less complicated

I think in this formation Rooney has a great chance of influencing the game a lot more than playing upfront all the time against two central defenders. We'll have width provided from our wingbacks and Nani, but it woudnt be any real static positions, all would be exchangeable

I tell you why I cant see a traditional 4-4-2 working for us right now. There isnt another scholes in world football, and even him at his best would be too much to ask to carrick in defensive duties. Also it would mean our best midfielder last season, fletcher, wouldnt have a place in the team. Playing carrick and fletch alone in midfield its too mechanical IMO, very little creativity in those two. Could work I guess if our attackers drop deeper but we dont want that, do we?

[shaunzo7]

Nah, Fletcher and Carrick can't really play together if we're wanting Rooney and Berbatov to stay further forward. For me though, Carrick was our best central midfielder last season - I thought he was brilliant but needed someone alongside him who could produce going forward like Scholes did to an extent a few seasons back alongside him.

In your formation I don't think Evra's link up play would be taken full advantage of. He's brilliant at getting forward and can execute an exceptional one-two and needs a proper winger alongside him. He'd be too isolated there or would drag Anderson or even Rooney wider and then we'd just be playing what we have this season and with two more defensive midfielders than attacking ones.

I don't see the problem if other teams are playing with three in the middle where as we have two in the classic 4-4-2 formation as the defence should deal with their three attacking players and our full backs will just have to concentrate on marking the wide frontmen rather than the wingers they'd have marked in the past. If anything we're left with four midfielders against their three as our wingers could help the central midfield while our central defenders can cover the full backs if necessary. Say Vidic and Ferdinand are in the middle, Rafa and Evra on the flanks. Against a formation like Barca played against us (Eto'o central, Messi and Henry out wide plus three central midfielders). Rio and Vidic have one central striker to mark so if the ball goes out to the right wing Vidic could mark, in this case, Eto'o while Rio covers Rafa and if the ball is switched to the left Rio switches with Vidic and marks Eto'o while Vidic keeps an eye on whether Evra needs support and is ready to offer it. While our four in midfield would be dealing with Xavi and Iniesta in particular but also have the advantage in numbers to cover Busquets too. Also its natural Rooney will come slighty deeper too, so he can help cover the central midfield to an extent, providing he doesn't come as deep as he has been forced too out on the wing. That was quiet hard to explain in written form, hopefully you'll understand.

Here's my formation view, really simple with Ozil and Valencia/Sanchez used as examples as to the type of players I think we need. Well Valencia and Sanchez are the most realistic wingers we've been linked to. Anyway Carrick would be operating behind the Ozil-like player and using his passing to push us forward while Ozil's role would be more a creator with link ups and short passes.

CODE

            Van der Sar

Rafael   Ferdinand   Vidic   Evra

             Carrick
Sanchez/          Ozil        Nani
Valencia                       |
    |        Rooney            |
    V          Berbatov        V

Again, like has been the case with Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez, Giggs in past seasons, we'll have a lot of movement up front as if Nani cuts inside, Ozil has experience on the wing and is left footed so can push out a bit or the wingers could switch flanks too. Also Rooney would be given a very free role I'd imagine.

[Pedram]

^You've left out Park, Fletch, Hargreaves, Anderson...four of our midfielders that all had 30+ appearances...

Why not try making a formation that would suit the entire team and that can fit the players we have with only minor adjustments?!

My beef wit the 4-5-1/4-3-3 is that too often the wingers come back a bit, and that in turn presses the central midfield back, so we get too defensive...
The 4-4-2 prevents that and more importantly bridges the gap between midfield and attack, as someone like a Rooney, Giggs or Anderson can play the drop off role and fit into midfield or just in front...

[Sharpey]

CODE

            Van der Sar

Rafael   Ferdinand   Vidic   Evra

             Carrick
Sanchez/          Ozil        Nani
Valencia                       |
    |        Rooney            |
    V          Berbatov        V

Again, like has been the case with Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez, Giggs in past seasons, we'll have a lot of movement up front as if Nani cuts inside, Ozil has experience on the wing and is left footed so can push out a bit or the wingers could switch flanks too. Also Rooney would be given a very free role I'd imagine.

dont you think on that formation you're putting too much strain on carrick's defensive duties? he'll basically have to sit even deeper than he does now and cover every inch of field between halfline and the entrance of our box. Carrick is an excellent defensive midfielder if he's properly rested and fresh, but he also adds a lot of tidiness to our attacking game that I wouldnt like to lose. With Fletch by his side, they can cover each other and Anderson could provide that spark of creativity, but also can cover them defensively as well in case either of them want to get into the box, which both like to do (fletch more than carrick)

Although neither fletcher, carrick or hargreaves are necessarily what you'd call a creative midfielder (carrick being the most creative of all), all three are pretty good at getting into scoring positions when they have adequate defensive cover. Do you remember a couple of games where we used hargro as an attacking mid in front of scholes and carrick, two seasons ago? he actually did pretty well, IMO thats his best position. A team with those three wouldnt have the ball for long periods, none can really keep possession like scholes, but would be very dynamic and direct. Personally I like a more stylish approach, but these three would be an overwhelming proposition for 90% of english teams, with the possible exception of liverpool.

As you see in a 4-3-3 formation we have a lot of interesting variants, and most importantly gives our three remaining attackers more freedom to attack and not be overly concerned about tracking back, wasting energies that could be better spent attacking and creating goal chances.

Fergie seems to favour this formation as well, in a different manner that what I propose, but he always puts three men in midfield against tough opposition. Furthermore, I dont think we'll play with a two men midfield again, not when we face top european or one of the top 4 teams in England

[shaunzo7]

dont you think on that formation you're putting too much strain on carrick's defensive duties? he'll basically have to sit even deeper than he does now and cover every inch of field between halfline and the entrance of our box. Carrick is an excellent defensive midfielder if he's properly rested and fresh, but he also adds a lot of tidiness to our attacking game that I wouldnt like to lose. With Fletch by his side, they can cover each other and Anderson could provide that spark of creativity, but also can cover them defensively as well in case either of them want to get into the box, which both like to do (fletch more than carrick)

Although neither fletcher, carrick or hargreaves are necessarily what you'd call a creative midfielder (carrick being the most creative of all), all three are pretty good at getting into scoring positions when they have adequate defensive cover. Do you remember a couple of games where we used hargro as an attacking mid in front of scholes and carrick, two seasons ago? he actually did pretty well, IMO thats his best position. A team with those three wouldnt have the ball for long periods, none can really keep possession like scholes, but would be very dynamic and direct. Personally I like a more stylish approach, but these three would be an overwhelming proposition for 90% of english teams, with the possible exception of liverpool.

As you see in a 4-3-3 formation we have a lot of interesting variants, and most importantly gives our three remaining attackers more freedom to attack and not be overly concerned about tracking back, wasting energies that could be better spent attacking and creating goal chances.

Fergie seems to favour this formation as well, in a different manner that what I propose, but he always puts three men in midfield against tough opposition. Furthermore, I dont think we'll play with a two men midfield again, not when we face top european or one of the top 4 teams in England

I don't see why Carrick should be tied to a defensive duty either. He rarely really pushes that far up the pitch, he tends to operate slightly deeper and uses his passing to help us so I don't see why that should change. Our defence are good enough to cope on their own if need be and Carrick can get back as he won't be too far forward and others can get back too. In 1999, with the midfield of Scholes, Keane, Giggs and Beckham, it was the same. Who had the defensive duties there? Keane did but he still moved forward didn't he? He was a box to box midfielder, not just limited to a defensive midfielder and Carrick's the same. I'm not denything they're very different players, but both were good at defending and going forward.

Don't you think, with this 4-3-3 formation you're looking at, Rooney would be forced further and further wide as you've only got one winger and that's on the right flank. Evra's being left with a lot of work to do going forward and has the problem of nobody to link up to as I mentioned before.

^You've left out Park, Fletch, Hargreaves, Anderson...four of our midfielders that all had 30+ appearances...

Why not try making a formation that would suit the entire team and that can fit the players we have with only minor adjustments?!

My beef wit the 4-5-1/4-3-3 is that too often the wingers come back a bit, and that in turn presses the central midfield back, so we get too defensive...
The 4-4-2 prevents that and more importantly bridges the gap between midfield and attack, as someone like a Rooney, Giggs or Anderson can play the drop off role and fit into midfield or just in front...

Yeah I know, there's no way to fit in absolutely everybody. Fergie will rotate as he did this season and these players will still play. Anderson and Fletcher can fit into that formation well as cover...Fletcher replacing Carrick and Anderson playing as I had Ozil playing. That midfield will be more aggresive, yes, but the principles would still be the same and Anderson would be allowed to get forward. I've left out Park because I simply don't think he's good enough, I've always said that haven't I and we've discussed that before and agree to disagree on that I suppose but I would have him as nothing more than emergency cover but that's another topic. Hargreaves, who knows what's happening with him, we have no idea how fit he'll be next season or for how long. He can be considered once he's proven he's fit and can stay fit.

So I think that formation does suit the entire team, we just can't fit everyone in on one line up and we've said all season long how good our squad is so there were always going to be selection dilemmas. Its not really major adjustments though is it? Its just bringing Rooney into the centre and replacing a central midfielder with a winger to cover the wing in which Rooney has vacated. I've only included two new signings, two positions I think we need to fill, and with the money we've got we can easily do that. Whether or not we need another striker is something I'll leave Fergie to decide, he sees the youngsters in action and can decide if they're good enough.